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Downforce...how much more rear stability with wing/diffusor?

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  • Downforce...how much more rear stability with wing/diffusor?

    I just installed Ohlins coilovers and the Elise ran great at SOW....a little slippery at first...

    My question is would a rear diffusor and/or rear spoiler/wing help and improve handling?

    At what speeds would the wing and diffusor really start to take effect?
    www.facenbody.com
    2005 Elise: Ohlins DA, BWR sway bar, RAC monolites, Pagid blues, Larini SE exhaust, CF everything, BWR s/c...
    SRF #237

  • #2
    at SOW, they don't do much. but at BW or AAA Speedway ROVAL, I think it helps with those high speed sweepers.

    if you think about the bowl, don't Elise takes it in 2nd gear ? don't think aero works at that speed. I believe Elise is also taking it flat out on the esses (just before the bowl going CW), so wing won't help there either. I can't think of a corner (with speed of 60MPH+) at SOW that a wing will helps.

    u might feel rear end more planted, but not faster lap time.
    S1 Supermiata - 220whp
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    • #3
      agreed at SOW didn't think aero would be of any use, although going CCW I took the Bowl in 3rd after shooting up the Chicane...

      I was thinking more about BW and ROVAL as you mentioned...perhaps it would help at those tracks...
      www.facenbody.com
      2005 Elise: Ohlins DA, BWR sway bar, RAC monolites, Pagid blues, Larini SE exhaust, CF everything, BWR s/c...
      SRF #237

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      • #4
        what setup does your car currently have? which suspension? any mods?
        AJ - Akua Solutions - #128 Lotus Exige - MonkeyWrench Racing - Carbonetic - Innovative Mounts - Toyo Tires - JRZ Suspension - TW Research Development

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        • #5
          Stuntman and I noticed a pretty big difference in S2000's with wings yesterday at Streets...
          HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
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          • #6
            Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
            Stuntman and I noticed a pretty big difference in S2000's with wings yesterday at Streets...
            +1,

            Keep in mind you can't simply say "wings wont work at track X". Their are far too many wings out there (many non-functional) that have different profiles, efficiencies, etc... Different wing profiles, angle of attack, gurney flap height, etc... all affect the effectiveness of a wing.

            Yes J. Tyler and I did test some S2000s last weekend at SOW with wings on them. Some didn't have the most efficient profile but had a proper angle of attack and it did increase the stability of the car into turn 1, through the esses before the bowl, added stability and slight understeer on entry of the bowl, stability into the chicane/esses after the bowl, etc...

            Unfortunately aerodynamics is considered a 'black art' because of the lack of knowledge of fluid dynamics and understanding of how they work. If you are asking will a wing help? You need to look into many different aspects of your car - model (elise), tire choice, width, suspension (spring rate, swaybars, dampers), etc...

            But yes a properly designed and executed wing or diffuser will improve the stability, rear downward force/grip even at medium-lower speeds.

            Also keep in mind, if a wing is efficient at lower speeds, most likely it will cause excess drag at higher speeds. Also if you have a non-functional wing or one with way too much angle of attack to stall it out, you're pretty much putting a parachute on the back of your car without benefiting from any added downward force (because the wing is stalling out).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by zjchaser View Post
              what setup does your car currently have? which suspension? any mods?
              Hey ZJ, at SOW, I was running on: Ohlins double adjustable with RAC monolites on r888's....car felt pretty good...

              I'll be at BW for the LCS, and it seemed like some aero would help at that faster track...
              www.facenbody.com
              2005 Elise: Ohlins DA, BWR sway bar, RAC monolites, Pagid blues, Larini SE exhaust, CF everything, BWR s/c...
              SRF #237

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Stuntman View Post

                But yes a properly designed and executed wing or diffuser will improve the stability, rear downward force/grip even at medium-lower speeds.

                Also keep in mind, if a wing is efficient at lower speeds, most likely it will cause excess drag at higher speeds. Also if you have a non-functional wing or one with way too much angle of attack to stall it out, you're pretty much putting a parachute on the back of your car without benefiting from any added downward force (because the wing is stalling out).
                Yea, so I'm trying to find out which wing would "functionally" benefit the Elise

                And also, is there a big difference between the 3 element and 5 element diffusor?
                www.facenbody.com
                2005 Elise: Ohlins DA, BWR sway bar, RAC monolites, Pagid blues, Larini SE exhaust, CF everything, BWR s/c...
                SRF #237

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stuntman View Post
                  ...if you have a non-functional wing or one with way too much angle of attack to stall it out, you're pretty much putting a parachute on the back of your car without benefiting from any added downward force (because the wing is stalling out).
                  I must have a non-functional wing stalling-out and acting like a parachute. I have not noticed it though. I will have to check it out when I get home tonight....

                  Last edited by zjchaser; 07-28-2008, 03:11 PM.
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                  • #10
                    yes it can at buttonwillow but if you aren't already running in the 2:01-2:04 range with your current setup then you probably wont see much gains from the aero.

                    I have no idea how quick of a drive you are but I would say make that a priority before worrying about the aero. The car is VERY capable even in stock form. Even just lowering the stock car has been proven to help the underbody aero. Does your exhaust exist through the diffuser or above it? I'd definitely go with an above diffuser exhaust exit then patch up the holes on the undertray and the exhaust hole in the diffuser.
                    AJ - Akua Solutions - #128 Lotus Exige - MonkeyWrench Racing - Carbonetic - Innovative Mounts - Toyo Tires - JRZ Suspension - TW Research Development

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                    • #11
                      Bill: I do have a wing, but I've never put it on for SOW.

                      I still don't see how it would help a car like Elise, which is taking SOW (CW) turn 1, esses before the bowl, chicane flat out w/o the wing any way. for CCW, esses after the bowl is also taken flat out in an Elise. I can see it for a high HP, low grip car. but not for a low HP, high grip car. like you said, for a wing to work at sub-60MPH, the wing angle would have to be so much that causes high speed drag. I could never understand aero. thanks.
                      Last edited by bellwilliam; 07-28-2008, 03:12 PM.
                      S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                      13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                      17 GT350R
                      03 Miata Club Sport
                      96 NSX
                      06 EVO MR
                      15 Mini Cooper S
                      Beck 550 Spyder

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Olitho View Post
                        I must have a non-functional wing stalling-out and acting like a parachute. I have not noticed it though. I will have to check it out when I get home tonight....

                        naw that is just the huge flat spots on your tires that you're feeling!
                        AJ - Akua Solutions - #128 Lotus Exige - MonkeyWrench Racing - Carbonetic - Innovative Mounts - Toyo Tires - JRZ Suspension - TW Research Development

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by zjchaser View Post
                          yes it can at buttonwillow but if you aren't already running in the 2:01-2:04 range with your current setup then you probably wont see much gains from the aero.

                          I have no idea how quick of a drive you are but I would say make that a priority before worrying about the aero. The car is VERY capable even in stock form. Even just lowering the stock car has been proven to help the underbody aero. Does your exhaust exist through the diffuser or above it? I'd definitely go with an above diffuser exhaust exit then patch up the holes on the undertray and the exhaust hole in the diffuser.
                          True, very capable....I'm actually just starting to track... 1:31 on CCW at SOW on Sat....

                          I have Larini SE exhaust with the Euro panel....
                          www.facenbody.com
                          2005 Elise: Ohlins DA, BWR sway bar, RAC monolites, Pagid blues, Larini SE exhaust, CF everything, BWR s/c...
                          SRF #237

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                          • #14
                            patching up the stock exhaust hole and patching up the holes in the undertray (under the rear control arms will benefit you more(for much cheaper) than a pricey cf diffuser. I'm also patching up the NACA ducts on the undertray as well.
                            AJ - Akua Solutions - #128 Lotus Exige - MonkeyWrench Racing - Carbonetic - Innovative Mounts - Toyo Tires - JRZ Suspension - TW Research Development

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by zjchaser View Post
                              naw that is just the huge flat spots on your tires that you're feeling!
                              Hey, did anyone catch on video that cloud of white smoke I laid down going into turn one?

                              That is my Agent 007 secret move when someone is closing the gap behind me. I just blind them in bluish white smoke!

                              To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

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