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CLUTCH vs. HELICAL L.S.D

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  • CLUTCH vs. HELICAL L.S.D

    Does anyone have a comment or info? I have a Helical diff and am considering a clutch type LSD unit. A clutch unit has better turn in and on power exit right?

    This is a FWD civic with around 220hp
    JW Racing
    95 civic ex NASA H1 #64

  • #2
    Originally posted by WESTUP View Post
    Does anyone have a comment or info? I have a Helical diff and am considering a clutch type LSD unit. A clutch unit has better turn in and on power exit right?

    This is a FWD civic with around 220hp
    220whp?

    Keep the helical/torsen for that power level.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for your input. So there wouldnt be a benefit, dang.. I just bought a KAAZ too. I am opening up my gearbox for a final drive change so I was going to do the diff at the same time.

      *On a side note stuntman, I wanted to talk to you about possibly some driving help ($$) and maybe some setup tips. pm me if you get a chance
      JW Racing
      95 civic ex NASA H1 #64

      Comment


      • #4
        I would definitely keep the helical type. If you were a drag racer I would say go with the clutch type. The torque biasing capabilities of the helical are far more beneficial than the clutch type IMO.

        Comment


        • #5
          Coming from a FWD (rsx-s) making 250whp 175wtq, I say go with the kaaz. The hellical/torsen would slip on bumpy roads (whenever you would lift a wheel) so it acts as an open diff at times. You want full lock during open throttle no matter what so a 1.5 way such as the kaaz is good. I was gonna go with ATS but I sold my rsx for an evo. Trust me on this one.

          Comment


          • #6
            Both have plusses and minuses...

            +A clutch-type can be tuned to your car specifically (well, assuming whoever you buy it from has that ability/know-how)

            +Clutch diff is lighter. Much less rotational inertia and less drag. = more power to ground, less drivetrain loss.

            -Clutch diffs tend to have pretty agressive "ramp towards lockup" characteristics, which is why Stuntman recommended staying with the helical you have. Higher-hp, RWD cars will want this style. Low hp and/or FWD cars do better with a more open diff that allows a bigger wheel speed difference and much shallower ramp. Low hp cars simply don't have the horsepower to overcome the tires scrub drag induced by a fast-ramping, very-locking (for lack of better terms! ) diff.

            Stunt is pretty up-to-date on diffs these days. I'd take his advice seriously...
            HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
            HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
            HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
            Buttonwillow dorifto
            Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
            100cc TonyKart @ Adams
            125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DOHCtor View Post
              You want full lock during open throttle no matter what so a 1.5 way such as the kaaz is good.
              Yea, no.
              HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
              HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
              HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
              Buttonwillow dorifto
              Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
              100cc TonyKart @ Adams
              125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
                Yea, no.
                It can be argued both ways but I personally perfer the 1.5way for a fwd. Some of my friends prefer the helical and some prfer the clutch time. It all depends on your driving style and what "you" want.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DOHCtor View Post
                  It can be argued both ways
                  There's only 1 way that is fastest
                  HP Autowerks 335i - 1st Place @ RTA Las Vegas 2010
                  HP Autowerks 335i @ Buttonwillow - 1:59.1
                  HP Autowerks 335i @ Laguna Seca
                  Buttonwillow dorifto
                  Lexus IS-F @ Chuckwalla
                  100cc TonyKart @ Adams
                  125cc TonyKart Shifter @ Apex

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
                    There's only 1 way that is fastest
                    Too many variables with different drivers. For example, one driver can be faster with the 1 way vs 1.5 way and vice versa for the other driver. Anyways, I just posted my .02 and I'm done here.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i prefer clutch type (or something like AYC )

                      J's Racing always setup their FWD like CRX, K20 Fit with 1.5 way

                      most JDM tuners i've seen use clutch type

                      if some pp feel better with helical/torsen, i won't stop him either
                      Jaku 峠

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jaku View Post
                        i prefer clutch type (or something like AYC )

                        J's Racing always setup their FWD like CRX, K20 Fit with 1.5 way

                        most JDM tuners i've seen use clutch type

                        if some pp feel better with helical/torsen, i won't stop him either
                        I see everyones point and I thank you. ^^ Thats why I was bought a clutch style, most of the fastest FWD Honda in USA and Japan I have personally seen use them. I am sure I will have to adjust my driving to get used to it. I am confused why some people say a locking diff will push and some say it will pull out on exit better?
                        I do plan to add more power later, looking towards 250 whp.
                        JW Racing
                        95 civic ex NASA H1 #64

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WESTUP View Post
                          I see everyones point and I thank you. ^^ Thats why I was bought a clutch style, most of the fastest FWD Honda in USA and Japan I have personally seen use them. I am sure I will have to adjust my driving to get used to it. I am confused why some people say a locking diff will push and some say it will pull out on exit better?
                          I do plan to add more power later, looking towards 250 whp.
                          i think you have ask those pp exactly when the understeer happens! corner entry, mid corner, corner exit, braking or throttling?

                          if not 1.5 way, the LSD should only works when applying throttle
                          Last edited by Jaku; 07-24-2008, 11:58 AM.
                          Jaku 峠

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by J. Tyler View Post
                            Yea, no.
                            +1

                            Originally posted by DOHCtor View Post
                            Too many variables with different drivers. For example, one driver can be faster with the 1 way vs 1.5 way and vice versa for the other driver. Anyways, I just posted my .02 and I'm done here.
                            I wish it were that simple. Here's something to chew on: Their are far too many variables in addition to driving style. Alignment, weight distribution, tires, wheelbase, power level, what it's used for (3-lap time attack, 40 minute sprint race, 6 hour endurance race, DD street car with some track use), etc... are all factors that affect the car's handling and thus have different demands.

                            Not all clutch type diffs are created the same. Many have different design philosophies with differing: preload, ramp angles, friction discs, friction material, etc... -all of this is beyond simply a 1, 1.5, or 2-way LSD.

                            So, instead of hearing "you should get X diff" (which is grossly simplified, often incorrect for your application, and just bad advice in general), we need to look at what car it is, the power levels, what type of driving it will endure (street driving with occasional HPDE days, sprint races, endurance races, etc... -and the resulting alignment FYI - cars set up for time attacks or even sprint races aren't always the best setup for endurance racing or a DD car) the type of tyre you're going to be using, etc... You should get into this habit about everything from suspension to power upgrades as you will easily be steered in 10 different directions by people who don't know any better.

                            Originally posted by WESTUP View Post
                            I see everyones point and I thank you. ^^ Thats why I was bought a clutch style, most of the fastest FWD Honda in USA and Japan I have personally seen use them. I am sure I will have to adjust my driving to get used to it. I am confused why some people say a locking diff will push and some say it will pull out on exit better?
                            I do plan to add more power later, looking towards 250 whp.
                            So if you're only at 250bhp, i'd still stay stick with the helical and even 250whp i'd recommend staying with the helical. But if you already bought the Kaaz clutch-type (first off is it a 1, 1.5 or 2-way and can it be converted to a 1 way? like a Cusco?) then we need to look at the aforementioned aspects to better narrow down what would be best for your application.

                            PM me to go further into this.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              PM sent Stuntman

                              I was a bit vague about the use it will endure. Mostly Sprint racing, some TA events. Most of the cars I compete against run a 1.5 way so I want to see why, by trying it myself.
                              I think since I have it, I will throw it in and try it. I may not like it or with luck it will suit my needs and driving style.

                              Thanks for the input everyone
                              JW Racing
                              95 civic ex NASA H1 #64

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