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Selling safety to the masses

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  • #16
    Those rules look pretty lax to me. Driver's have options of keeping oem safety intact and adding like harness with or without HNR...reasonable. I do not like the equal restraint 1d clause but that can be avoided by having all instruction to solo done with 3pt OEM or drive with another organization to get solo and then go back to your organization. I understand how an org. like P club who only has right seat instruction programs wants instructors to be safe but right seat instruction is not mandatory to creating safe drivers. Many clubs do not do right seat instruction mandatory to solo and they do just fine. Driver's making an instruction investment beyond solo OK then invest in your right seat safety. That is a choice and I'm OK with that. Many driver's 1st trackdays were skippy school single seaters. They did just fine without an instructor sitting next to them too.



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    • #17
      I donít disagree with your assessments. As I may have mentioned before, I donít think these are big requests.

      With sites like Motorsportsreg.com, like we use, we can see a driverís HPDE history, and that has been helpful. We can also leave notes about a participant which they cannot see, so if they did something egregious other organizations can see it.

      We will obviously waive instruction with a valid comp license. The trouble had been too many meatheads showing up at dangerous tracks (like Road Atlanta), and being misclassed because their perception of where they should be is different than reality. Some of these cars hitting a buck forty plus on the back, it gets messy in a hurry.

      Normally, we do a few events each year where only experienced drivers are allowed. We had an incident at one of these where a participant brought a new to them exo-type vehicle. Well, new car and a fast track combined with questionable safety equipment was a recipe for near-disaster. The driver climbed the curb, kicked the car sideways, and slapped the wall hard enough to collapse the suspension on one side. The sketchy safety gear didnít help. The driverís helmet made contact with the wall. That person spent a few days in hospital, but is still walking and talking with no memory of the incident.

      Yer pal,
      Force

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post
        1. b. All Drivers and passengers must wear at minimum long pants, closed toed and closed
        heeled shoes, and a short sleeved T-shirt. No tank-tops allowed.



        2. b. Drivers and passengers are required to wear at minimum, long pants, long sleeved shirt,
        closed toed and closed heeled shoes. Full Nomex driver gear is strongly recommended.
        1.b. Geez, how much trouble is it to wear a long sleeve shirt?? How about "natural fiber clothing" (e.g. cotton)?? Polyester in a fire could be a real bad thrill. What, no gloves?? Under $10 will get you some leather gloves at Home Depot.

        2.b. Same comments about fabric and gloves.

        Here is a link to an article about a guy whose car burst into flames, wearing a T-shirt, no gloves. Still shot below.


        Click image for larger version  Name:	Car Fire.jpg Views:	1 Size:	81.1 KB ID:	260381

        Who needs safety equipment if nothing goes wrong? Everyone thinks they are a good driver, and that their car is in good shape. It is always going to be the "other guy". We tell them sometimes they could very well be the "other guy". When you really need the safety equipment, you will wish you had bought the best.

        We get a fair number of complaints - "Why can't I go out in shorts (or T-Shirt, or without gloves). Other clubs let me do this." from some of our entrants. Especially when it is hot.

        Had a guy at Buttonwillow who didn't have long pants, and complained. Said we never said anything about this before. I told him we stated it the drivers meeting to which he replied that he missed the meeting. I pulled out his tech sheet, asked him if that was his, and his signature, and that he read and checked all the boxes. He said yes. Had him read the box about clothing, to which he said he guessed he didn't pay attention to that one. We told him to drive down the big gas stop and buy a pair of jeans for $15 or so. We offered to give him extra sessions to make up for the time lost. He didn't want to do that, and kept asking me if he could go out in shorts. Told him he could ask all day, and the answer would be the same. Then he complained that he drove up the night before and paid for a hotel. I suggested he go to the hotel and see if they would refund his money, and maybe lend him a pair of pants. We refunded his money less a cancellation fee as an act of good faith, but I doubt if any of the stuff sunk in.
        Last edited by Slaysman; 08-10-2018, 07:14 PM.
        Terry Watson
        AROSC Competition Director

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        • #19
          Yes. I know what you are talking about. There was a participant who the corner workers at a track recognized from other HPDE events (not ours) for drifting a car marketed after a demonic feline around a particularly dangerous turn. This participant did this maneuver at ours, lost control, hit the barriers, and flipped the vehicle over. The participant crawls out wearing shorts and flip flops, but was ok otherwise. I have no idea how the participant made it past pit out, but it happened.
          Yer pal,
          Force

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post

            With sites like Motorsportsreg.com, We can also leave notes about a participant which they cannot see, so if they did something egregious other organizations can see it.

            Wow! Without participant knowledge...I did not know that. What is egregious? What protections are there for the participants?

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            • #21
              Serious or repeated safety issues. The incident above, the participant was flagged. I believe he was told he would be flagged, I was not privy to that conversation. We are a lot more transparent than most. The participant didnít seem to care since the vehicle was pretty much toast.

              Protections? Donít be stupid at the track...? If we talk to you about something, we use a 3 strike system.
              Last edited by Force McCocken; 08-11-2018, 02:19 PM.
              Yer pal,
              Force

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post
                Protections? Donít be stupid at the track...? If we talk to you about something, we use a 3 strike system.
                That's fine when the system works. I very old and understand absolute power corrupts absolutely. If things self policed themselves we would not need all the rules.

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                • #23
                  Understood, but where does it behoove us to start flagging indiscriminately and gain a draconian reputation? On the flip side, how would you protect the sport we love by not issuing a warning to other organizations that a particular participant is dangerous? Slippery slope, I understand that, though I also believe these events are a serious incident or two away from being heavily regulated or substantially priced by underwriters.
                  Yer pal,
                  Force

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post
                    Understood, but where does it behoove us to start flagging indiscriminately and gain a draconian reputation?
                    Well you assume reasonable people who do do dumb stuff. There is stupid all around you. An organizer who started a now large organization is not immune to poor choices. Look at what SCCA does. The stewards or another driver can call you on something and the accused has his day in SCCA court. SCCA has a fair and balanced process for censuring bad drivers. While the MSR method has good intention there can be unintended consequences and offers no checks and balances.



                    Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post
                    I also believe these events are a serious incident or two away from being heavily regulated or substantially priced by underwriters.
                    Organizers and drivers are our own worst enemy. For example we have had a working system of driver training set-up by individual organizations. Porsche does it their way. SCCA does it their way. Alfa club has their way. Even clubs with elementary safety based driver's ed to get on track have excellent safety records. When someone dies on track the forums are buzzing. What about the 3000 auto deaths per day! So many are allowing the self proclaimed MSF into their training programs to absolve themselves of a driving curriculum under the guise of making the track safety by uniform instruction. Well who are they to determine what is safe? MSF grandfathers all the known instructors like P Krause and R. Bentley and those guys got instant top level certification on reputation only. The rest of you gotta take tests and spend money to be an instructor! So now MSF is instantly legitimate by having top guys on board. How many of those top guys would have joined in if they had to pay? How many would have joined if they had to take tests? You want more regulation let a trade organization start making rules for your club.


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                    • #25
                      You have to pay money to become a member of NASA or SCCA, and pay again to get your comp license. This is discussion is about safety for the casual participant, not a discourse for potential Orwellian track culture.
                      Yer pal,
                      Force

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                      • #26
                        I've been out of the game for a while. Has there been a spike in track day costs caused by rising insurance premiums due to safety incidents?

                        I believe there is a critical difference between selling safety to the masses, and forcing safety on the masses. It should be natural for any American to take umbrage with anyone who claims to know their needs better. This idea that people don't have the right to perform their own risk analysis is toxic to freedom because it extends beyond HPDE to virtually any other topic from swimming pools, motorcycles, firearms, smoking, eating habits, and so on. In my opinion, the only justifiable discussion is whether anyone's stupid choices is preventing you from enjoying the sport, and what can be done to mitigate that harm using the least invasive remedy possible.

                        I think Emilio has the right idea. He calls it scaring drivers, but I would call it educating drivers. A personal risk analysis is only as good as the information known by the individual. I think education is the least invasive remedy that's likely to work... if there is in fact a problem here that needs to be solved.
                        Last edited by SDSUsnowboards; 08-22-2018, 10:30 AM.
                        2001 MR2-Eleven
                        Experience Points: 21
                        Youtube Channel.

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