Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forum Top Advertisment

Collapse

Selling safety to the masses

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Selling safety to the masses

    Recently, an HPDE organization I am affiliated with implemented new safety standards for their events after an incident. I listened to the safety & race controller talk about why they had to happen, and it makes sense to me. I am far more safety conscious now in this sport than I was 5-10 years ago.

    A lot of the rules pertained to caged cars, exo cars, and required safety gear to be implemented with their associated system to work effectively.

    Some of the other rules pertained to equal safety for street cars that may have passengers/instructors so that if the driver has a proper race seat, mount, and harness, so should the other side.

    A lot of pushback was made by participants and regulars. I understand their grievances, but I donít think they understand the intent.

    This organization has made great improvements to provide more safety to itís customers, such as using only MSF certified instructors (often at a detriment of losing those not willing to attain the cert), hiring the regional SCCA competition chair as race/safety control, negotiating discounts on safety gear through local retailers, etc. Still, there seems to be a growing mindset at HPDEs (not just ours) similar to TA, or as a ďshortcutĒ to racing without the preparation or gear.

    The question or advice I seek is how do I help sell these safety regulations as beneficial to those who donít see them? I know some will seek other organizations, and thatís fine. It happens. How do I make a polite, beneficial platform to encourage a dialogue to help or customers see the advantages to the level of safety we now require?
    Yer pal,
    Force

  • #2
    I like to scare the drivers in Supermiata. Videos, shared posts, anecdotes. Seems to work. By 2019 we'll be pretty much pro motorsports level safety equipment. and car prep.
    HPDE is a whole 'nother kettle of fish though. As you observed, it's viewed by many as way to get on track specifically in the interest of bypassing w2w safety related expenses.

    Humans will always choose satisfaction now over a longer lifespan. It's endemic to our species. They have to be made to think that they could suffer pain and discomfort now, should they make the wrong choice.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm big on safety. Many know that. But I am opposed to MSF. I think it is a crock to regulate the industry. Who made them the boss? They are not FIA. BS BS BS! Second educate the drivers. Mandates and rules are just more bureaucratic control by someone who want to control stuff under the guise of helping. You can statistically prove OEM safety systems. You can statistically prove racecar safety systems. All that stuff in between is just conjecture and good sounding ideas. I don't want the unintended consequences of your good intentions. I think dual safety systems on driver and passenger side is a Porsche "red herring." Why do groups want to be like porsche club? Because they are porsche they have credibility? That parallel safety is an extra expense really to make the porsche instructors feel warm and fuzzy. This is 2018. Right seat instruction is obsolete. Drivers should be well in control with passengers. It should be the driver's and passenger's responsibility to decide what is appropriate.

      Why do clubs/organizers talk tough on safety but yet totally lack safety protocol for dealing with incidents. Is your club ready to call in the helicopter? Do they have trained extraction crews? Do they have fire rescue on site? Who at the corner stations practice with a fire bottle? Are there upstream and downstream flaggers at the corner stations? Are all the corner stations manned? ACLS available on site? Do they have real tow truck? Do they have a medical steward? If the track has a medical center, is it staffed? Do they even have insurance to cover this stuff and are you the driver listed as an additional insured?

      Comment


      • #4
        Drivers, HPDE or racers, need to be reminded that the absolutely most important piece of safety gear is the gray matter between their ears. Drive smart, with good judgement and keep emotions (including the "red mist") in check. For HPDE-ers, remind them that they're not racing and nobody cares if they passed a Ferrari while diving their NA6 Miata. That, and $2.45, will get them a regular coffee at Starbucks.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fatbillybob View Post
          I'm big on safety. Many know that. But I am opposed to MSF. I think it is a crock to regulate the industry. Who made them the boss? They are not FIA. BS BS BS! Second educate the drivers. Mandates and rules are just more bureaucratic control by someone who want to control stuff under the guise of helping. You can statistically prove OEM safety systems. You can statistically prove racecar safety systems. All that stuff in between is just conjecture and good sounding ideas. I don't want the unintended consequences of your good intentions. I think dual safety systems on driver and passenger side is a Porsche "red herring." Why do groups want to be like porsche club? Because they are porsche they have credibility? That parallel safety is an extra expense really to make the porsche instructors feel warm and fuzzy. This is 2018. Right seat instruction is obsolete. Drivers should be well in control with passengers. It should be the driver's and passenger's responsibility to decide what is appropriate.

          Why do clubs/organizers talk tough on safety but yet totally lack safety protocol for dealing with incidents. Is your club ready to call in the helicopter? Do they have trained extraction crews? Do they have fire rescue on site? Who at the corner stations practice with a fire bottle? Are there upstream and downstream flaggers at the corner stations? Are all the corner stations manned? ACLS available on site? Do they have real tow truck? Do they have a medical steward? If the track has a medical center, is it staffed? Do they even have insurance to cover this stuff and are you the driver listed as an additional insured?
          FBB, I get it from that point of view, I really do. Free will, personal responsibility, I understand. I'm ambivalent about the MSF as well, but it does help organizations like ours vet our instructors. I do agree that having a person in the right seat is outdated, but these HPDEs tend to bring in very green participants. It's a little troublesome to me, personally, to see a complete novice come to one of these with a dizzying array of data collection devices and no skill.

          Helicopter? Yes, we have had a participant airlifted from the track.

          Trained extraction crew? Yes, we run the full compliment at our venues.

          Fire Rescue? Absolutely, no shortcuts there.

          Same with corner workers (manned and FIA lighting if available), fire equipment, ambulance, tow&recovery. Even pay to staff the med center, if available, and needed it with our last event.. We even pull random red flag drills to test the drivers' awareness.

          A lot of the new rules this organization comes from incidents of people not utilizing and installing the safety equipment they DO have properly.
          Last edited by Force McCocken; 08-08-2018, 05:32 AM.
          Yer pal,
          Force

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by emilio700 View Post
            I like to scare the drivers in Supermiata. Videos, shared posts, anecdotes. Seems to work. By 2019 we'll be pretty much pro motorsports level safety equipment. and car prep.
            HPDE is a whole 'nother kettle of fish though. As you observed, it's viewed by many as way to get on track specifically in the interest of bypassing w2w safety related expenses.

            Humans will always choose satisfaction now over a longer lifespan. It's endemic to our species. They have to be made to think that they could suffer pain and discomfort now, should they make the wrong choice.
            Sigh. I feel like that's the way. There have been enough incidents that past few years, not just at ours, to sort of hit home how important getting the safety gear, training, and proper awareness are. Our controller takes the on-track incidents hard, his passion for this sport is second to none. Personally, watching someone airlifted from a track really did it for me.
            Yer pal,
            Force

            Comment


            • #7
              Maybe would help to post pictures of horrific accidents at the drivers meetings. Same effect as watching the Red Asphalt videos in drivers training in school.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't agree the passenger side needs to mirror the driver side. Unless the passenger has a hans device to go with their helmet, they are likely better off with the OE seat/3pt/airbag. I had a mirror setup in my miata (which I loved and felt super comfy with) but only because my wife drove as well, we both had hans, and frequently were each others passenger.

                '09 rx8 sport

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Force McCocken View Post
                  Personally, watching someone airlifted from a track really did it for me.
                  And this is the key. Tie in to our monkey brain so it's an autonomic response. As you are cringing from the news, you reflexively open up Winding Road on your phone to shop for window nets...

                  Seeing Tage Evansons (2011) and Chalrles Esplenaubs (2009) near death experiences woke me up. Both drivers got the car under control quickly, fire system triggered and were out of the car before it came to a stop. Both received serious burn injuries. IOW, do everything right and you still might narrowly avoid bacon. Do anything wrong and you're almost assured to perish in a similar fire event.

                  Scare tactics work.

                  WWW.949RACING.COM
                  SuperMiata

                  Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
                  But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I sell people on the performance advantage they get from a good race seat and harness setup. Being well planted in the car is worth more than most expensive engine mods that are questionable on engine lifespan. Once you get the driver to see the light that a good seat helps as much as a good set of DOT R tires, but doesn't wear out, then it is only a small step further to get them to do the fire system and window net, too.
                    To the right of The Sheriff. Isn't everyone?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sounds like anti smoking campaigns. I believe in factual education and free will.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Over the last few years, by and large, the deaths that have occurred in the hobby have not been racers. They have been high-performance drivers in street cars. By the time someone commits to building a racecar and going racing, I think he or she has a firm grip on the benefits of safety equipment and are far less likely to balk at the expense.

                        Going from bargain-brand harnesses to Schroth harnesses pointed up the difference in safety gear for me and how spending a couple of hundred dollars more on good gear is worth it in the end.

                        People who drive their daily drivers to and from the track is a different story. I think William touched on this before after the guy died at Chuckwalla. He had a car with some OEM equipment and some aftermarket safety gear, and the result was tragic.

                        Either leave the OEM stuff intact or go full-on retard and install the containment seat, harness, net, fire system, hand-held bottle, etc. If you plan to take instructors or passengers, you are essentially responsible for them, too, in terms of your driving and your equipment, so take care of them.
                        www.TrackHQ.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I reverted from a 6pt cage NA with an FIA seat, 6 pt harness, necksgen lite to an NB1 with a 4pt rollbar, Simpson Hybrid S, OE 3pts and airbags. I don't know which is less safe, but the NB system feels more complete to me, maybe more "in spirit" with HPDE. With the NA, I should have had nets or arm restraints.

                          I still wear a suit, helmet, gloves, shoes, have a QR bottle on the floor.
                          Yer pal,
                          Force

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            who is the group and what have they proposed? All the drivers of this group know so it is not a secret right?



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              1. Regular production vehicles - This rule set is for vehicles that have a normally obtained VIN
                              number from the factory and are not extensively modified from stock form or configuration (i.e.
                              addition of or replacement of some or all chassis components with a tube frame or other
                              significant modification).
                              a. Driverís and passengers must have a minimum of an Snell certified car helmet with a
                              current certification within the last 2 cycles of certifications. (i.e. in 2018, an SA2010 or
                              newer helmet is required. In 2021, an SA2015 or newer helmet is required)
                              b. All Drivers and passengers must wear at minimum long pants, closed toed and closed
                              heeled shoes, and a short sleeved T-shirt. No tank-tops allowed.
                              c. Driverís and passengers are not required but are very strongly encouraged to wear a
                              head and neck restraint appropriate to the seat belts or harnesses in the car.
                              d. All passenger seats, seat mounts (not including seat sliders), and harnesses must be at
                              least equal to the drivers seat, seat mounts, and harnesses.
                              e. Seats must either use the factory seats and mounts or conform to the seat mounting
                              requirements listed in the non-production rules below.
                              2. Non production or purpose built racing vehicles - This rule set is for vehicles that either do
                              not have a VIN number obtained in the normal fashion by the factory or are extensively modified
                              from stock form or configuration. (examples of this category include but are not limited to tube
                              frame cars, formula/prototype cars, Ariel Atoms, kit cars, home built vehicles etcÖ)
                              a. Driverís and passengers must have a minimum of an Snell certified car helmet with a
                              current certification within the last 2 cycles of certifications. (i.e. in 2018, an SA2010 or
                              newer helmet is required. In 2021, an SA2015 or newer helmet is required)
                              b. Drivers and passengers are required to wear at minimum, long pants, long sleeved shirt,
                              closed toed and closed heeled shoes. Full Nomex driver gear is strongly recommended.
                              c. Drivers and passengers are required to wear an sfi or fia certified head/neck restraint
                              device.
                              d. Drivers and Passengers must wear arm restraints.
                              i. Vehicles equipped with right and left side containment nets, and a metal or
                              composite material roof panel or commercially available roof net intended for
                              motorsports use, are excluded from the arm restraint requirements.
                              e. Vehicles are required to have valid SFI or FIA certified 5 or 6 point racing harnesses.
                              f. Vehicles must have a current FIA approved head containment seat or FIA equivalent (i.e.
                              right side and left side containment nets).
                              g. Vehicle seats must conform to the certification levels and mounting provisions in one of
                              the following rulesets.
                              i. SCCA Club Racing
                              1. General Competition Rules (GCR) section 9.3.19 subsection C
                              ii. National Auto Sports Association (NASA)
                              1. General Rules and Regulations section 15.17
                              iii. Porsche Club of America (PCA)
                              1. Club Racing Rule Book, PCA Club Racing Safety, Driver Requirements
                              iv. BMW Car Club of America
                              1. BMWCCA Club Racing Rules Section F
                              Yer pal,
                              Force

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X