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Cost analysis for club racing

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  • #31
    James, I just purchased two sets of new rims so now I'll be doing what you're doing. Biggest issue is that currently half of my tires are SM6es and the others are RRs. At this time, my plan is to eventually replace the SM6es with RRs since I can run the RR in both NASA and SCCA (Cal Club) SM events. I think the RRs are reasonably competitive with SM6es.

    As an FYI to anyone here, the Cal Club (SoCal SCCA) has an open tire rule for regional SM racing. NASA does not.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
      Mike, if people are concerned about the cost you can be penny wise and pound foolish. Invest in multiple rim sets so that you are not toasting your race tires and having to buy stickers every race weekend. Get the most out of what you are spending. When I can I will be buying a 3rd set of rims so that we can extend our tire program even further. With multiple rim sets you can be competitive on 5 HC tires. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good idea to go out on shaved stickers if you want that advantage. But that is the same for whatever tire SPM is thinking about running. Shaved new will be faster than unshaved old regardless of the tire in almost all cases. I am trying to compare apples to apples. Maybe I am wrong and we will get destroyed this coming weekend on our old Toyos.

      But you guys are right - If we were in contention for the championship that we care about, we would have gone out on stickers. But so would you in this new class. Devil IS in the details and that was my original point about the comparison that is being made to PTE class racing. Seemed to be full of details that were being presented in the best possible light to support the idea that SPM is the panacea for expensive racing. Racing is expensive period.
      I understand your argument but you're admittedly tweaking the context both ways to prove your point.

      "our RR's last 3 races" But admit to not being as competitive as you would be with fresh tires

      "Even RC-1's would be faster if shaved". This assumes someone is willing to outspend everyone else to win. Not a direct comparison to your first example. In any case, this theoretical money bags SPM racer is a ghost. They would go directly to NASA, SCCA and not even be interested in SPM.

      You make it sound as if I either we have no idea what the real costs for SCCA or NASA are or we simply skewing the facts. This is forgetting that as a team, we have BTDT. Not as backmarkers either. A semi trailer full of tires worth of experience with NT01's, R6's A6's, SM6's, RR's, a shelf full of trophies and national championships. We know what the costs are all to intimately. This is precisely why we created SuperMiata. I don't collect entry fees, Aaron does. I just want a place to race and save maybe $30K/yr.

      SPM costs less than racing any production car (not karts , legends etc) in NASA or SCCA give the same level of competitiveness. Measured as running at the front, mid pack or merely showing up, either way. Apples to apples, SPM costs less.
      WWW.949RACING.COM
      SuperMiata

      Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
      But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
        William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9. If that is the tipping point for you then the decision is clear, go SPM and have a great time racing!!!!!!!!
        And the lower cost engine
        and the lower cost fuel
        and the lower entry fee
        and the longer lasting tires
        and the lower... lap times than SM


        I appreciate your fervor in defending NASA Spec Miata but your're taking the wrong tack. SM has bigger fields, more bragging rights and a televised national championship. SPM can not even compare on those points. But
        attacking our statements on cost is a losing battle. We have BTDT and no exactly what it costs, that is why we are even having this discussion. If it wasn't cheaper, trust me, I would have nothing to do with it.

        Heading out to lunch now. When I get back I'm going to tune Alex's race engine. A $600 junkyard special with barely 160psi compression. From experience, I know we can coax the 140whp power cap on $3.49/gallon E85 so he can run at the front.
        You can't imagine how sweet that is.
        WWW.949RACING.COM
        SuperMiata

        Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
        But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
          Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
          I lol'd IRL

          Originally posted by MikeColangelo View Post
          I think the RRs are reasonably competitive with SM6es.
          I wish this were true.
          Last edited by Savington; 10-01-2013, 01:18 PM.
          Theseus: '94 Miata, NASA SU/TTU (in progress)
          Rover: '90 Miata, NASA PTE/E3

          Comment


          • #35
            Emilio,

            I think it is a direct comparison.

            I say that if I wanted to chase the win I would put stickers on if I needed to in SM. I would do the same if I needed to in SPM. Your point is that no one will in SPM. Ok, fair enough.

            New shaved RR is faster than unshaved old RR. New shaved whatever SPM runs will be faster than used unshaved whatever SPM runs. Again your point is that no one will do it in SPM. Ok, fair enough.

            So the question comes down to what do you want to do with racing? Emilio, I know who you guys are and I have a deep respect for your knowledge and experience. You have defined the SPM target customer. With that definition in place, I would recommend SPM to all reading this thread. I concur with Emilio that it will be the cheapest production car racing around.

            For me personally, I enjoy racing an engine that I built (contrary to popular belief you can build a "pro" level motor in SM yourself if you put in the research time). I enjoy making the chassis and running gear a big part of the equation instead of bolt on power to overcome poor running gear and chassis setup. I enjoy knowing that my hubs are freshly serviced before each race, that my brake slides are lubed and running free, that my half shafts and CV joints are in good condition. But that is probably because I am the mechanic and not the driver. But as a small side note point; a well serviced non junkyard car is much much safer than running a junkyard engine car. Even with identical safety gear in the car. A car that doesn't break is safer than any car that blows up. I ran a junkyard motor. It lasted exactly 3 track days. My "pro" built motor lasted one season. We will see how long my home brew pro built motor will last. But so far, my home pro built motor is putting out 4 more HP than the "pro" motor I originally bought. It all comes down to what you want personally for your racing program. We are not a money bag team. Anyone that has seen our program knows this. We are the poor people in SM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Savington View Post
              I lol'd IRL
              Ok I guess I am crazy.

              Comment


              • #37
                Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
                Team Rambling Warrior Poet


                RRE
                Robispec
                Girodisc
                SCM
                APR

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bueller View Post
                  Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
                  Not the ideal thread for this question. Read through this http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f13/so...a-thread-6547/

                  and this
                  SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata – Miata Challenge

                  You'll need a 1.8 to be competitive. Fresh 99-05 engine will make class power on pump gas. 94-97 1.8 or worn out 99-05 will need E85.
                  WWW.949RACING.COM
                  SuperMiata

                  Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
                  But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bueller View Post
                    Emilio, can you tell us some info on the miatas that are running in your series? Like, are there 1.6s, or mostly 1.8s, 99s, and newer? And roughly whats the range of their race weight and hp?
                    SuperMiata Rules & Regulations | SuperMiata Miata Challenge

                    Richard's version:

                    140whp cap, but there is a formula for calculating area under the curve (so no built engine).... basically any 1.8 will get there.....formula is ECU, intake, exhaust, junkyard engine and may be E85.
                    2,300LB minimum comp weight - easily doable with a 220LB driver. and doable with a 300LB driver if you work on it.
                    front EP dam, and rear spoiler
                    spec 205/50-15 RC1 tire at special price of just under $110.
                    any suspension (but max limit of $2.5k ? which covers 95% Miata suspension)

                    still working on getting 1.6 to get there. won't be easy, but 1.6SM are ridiculous cheap and plenty...may be lower comp weight. or may be just allow them to drop in a junkyard $700 1.8.
                    S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                    17 GT350R
                    03 Miata Club Sport
                    96 NSX
                    06 EVO MR
                    15 Mini Cooper S
                    Beck 550 Spyder

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post
                      ..
                      still working on getting 1.6 to get there. won't be easy, but 1.6SM are ridiculous cheap and plenty...may be lower comp weight. or may be just allow them to drop in a junkyard $700 1.8.
                      I was kicking around the idea of building a 2250# E85 burning 1.6 to see if it could hold it's own against the 2300# 140whp 1.8's. I have a really healthy junkyard 1.6 (190psi) from the wrecked '91 and the OGK tub that already has a Miatacage installed. What do you think?
                      WWW.949RACING.COM
                      SuperMiata

                      Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
                      But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by emilio700 View Post
                        I was kicking around the idea of building a 2250# E85 burning 1.6 to see if it could hold it's own against the 2300# 140whp 1.8's. I have a really healthy junkyard 1.6 (190psi) from the wrecked '91 and the OGK tub that already has a Miatacage installed. What do you think?
                        is healthy junkyard 1.6 still around ? may be just let them do a 1.8 upgrade.. probably simpler and more reliable (running bigger 1.8 brakes and rear end)....
                        because even if your healthy 1.6 runs competitively, it doesn't mean other less healthy 1.6 will. unlike 1.8, even your average 150k miles na8 engine will make close to class power with E85 and ECU.
                        S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                        13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                        17 GT350R
                        03 Miata Club Sport
                        96 NSX
                        06 EVO MR
                        15 Mini Cooper S
                        Beck 550 Spyder

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I see a 100k 1.6 makes max power of 125 with ECU and E85.

                          that means 1.6 min comp weight gonna be close to 2,050LB to be competitive
                          not doable with a 200LB driver (180LB driver with 20LB of gear).
                          S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                          13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                          17 GT350R
                          03 Miata Club Sport
                          96 NSX
                          06 EVO MR
                          15 Mini Cooper S
                          Beck 550 Spyder

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post
                            is healthy junkyard 1.6 still around ? may be just let them do a 1.8 upgrade.. probably simpler and more reliable (running bigger 1.8 brakes and rear end)....
                            because even if your healthy 1.6 runs competitively, it doesn't mean other less healthy 1.6 will. unlike 1.8, even your average 150k miles na8 engine will make close to class power with E85 and ECU.

                            I see a 100k 1.6 makes max power of 125 with ECU and E85.

                            that means 1.6 min comp weight gonna be close to 2,050LB to be competitive
                            not doable with a 200LB driver (180LB driver with 20LB of gear).
                            Good point. Even it I did make say, 135whp, it's not relevant. Junkyard 1.6's with that much compression are all but non-existent.
                            WWW.949RACING.COM
                            SuperMiata

                            Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
                            But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Emilio or William. This is really really tempting.

                              Can either of give me a rough low and high number. Assume I don't have a miata. What is the min, avg, max cost to run the year. Let's say 8 events a year.

                              Car (Fixed Cost) range - $

                              Full Safety (Fixed Cost)- $

                              Tires (Avg per event based on 1 set for 2 or 3 weekends - $______x3-4 =

                              Mods(intake/exhaust/suspension/tune/what have you etc...) - Fixed cost $

                              Brake Pads/Rotors/Oil/Spark Plugs/Hubs/other maintenance/known parts to break and need to be replaced/consumables not listed etc... - Avg per weekend - $

                              Fuel (per event )- $_____x8 weekends =

                              Entry Fee/Gate/transponder (per event)- $______x8 weekends =

                              Total cost to run a year. $______

                              obviously, if you already have the car race ready and just need to budget out consumables/fees/gas/tires/etc. will be alot cheaper. So just minus those items.
                              Last edited by Pure EvoIX; 10-01-2013, 06:56 PM.
                              Zhong (Evo IX) | Angry Panda Racing

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                              Fastest Limited/Mod Class Evo in Time Attack at WSIR
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pure EvoIX View Post
                                Total cost to run a year.
                                Probably cheaper than that Rice Attack Evo of yours!

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