Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forum Top Advertisment

Collapse

Cost analysis for club racing

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
    if you want to narrowly define the comparison .
    then don't narrowly define.

    if you run PTE vs. SPM. SPM is still cheaper by quite a bit AND with ~12 sessions (SV) vs. 6 sessions (NASA) for the weekend.

    *note that SV SPM is an add on for $20 per day. so it will always comes with green/red group TT sessions.
    S1 Supermiata - 220whp
    13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
    17 GT350R
    03 Miata Club Sport
    96 NSX
    06 EVO MR
    15 Mini Cooper S
    Beck 550 Spyder

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post
      then don't narrowly define.

      if you run PTE vs. SPM. SPM is still cheaper by quite a bit AND with ~12 sessions (SV) vs. 6 sessions (NASA) for the weekend.

      *note that SV SPM is an add on for $20 per day. so it will always comes with green/red group TT sessions.
      Then in that case I go back to my original statement; NASA SM weekend is $350 ( yes you can add on the late fees if that is what you want to do ). Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive. That seems to be about the same cost.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
        Then in that case I go back to my original statement; NASA SM weekend is $350 ( yes you can add on the late fees if that is what you want to do ). Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive. That seems to be about the same cost.
        Competitive as in capable of the same lap times in the same conditions, for a podium after 9 heat cycles or battling for 6th with the other guys on old tires?

        Measured by that yardstick, a set of Maxxis RC-1's would be "competitive" for about 8 races
        Last edited by emilio700; 10-01-2013, 11:06 AM.
        WWW.949RACING.COM
        SuperMiata

        Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
        But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
          Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
          your Hoosier (sorry, but if you are not running Hoosier, then you are not competitive) will last you 3 weekends ?
          that means you will probably make RC1 last the whole year then.

          I can't make Hoosier last more than 1 weekend, and expect to be competitive the next weekend.

          and this is for R6. for A6 (what Sonny ran in D at National TT), I couldn't make them competitive past 2nd session...
          Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-01-2013, 11:06 AM.
          S1 Supermiata - 220whp
          13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
          17 GT350R
          03 Miata Club Sport
          96 NSX
          06 EVO MR
          15 Mini Cooper S
          Beck 550 Spyder

          Comment


          • #20
            We run Toyo RR's . At the regional level they will last 3 weekends and be able to podium. This assumes that you have multiple rim sets and you have a program that rotates in tires to practice on and tires to race on. That means that you will have a max of 5 cycles on your race tires when you take the last session of the 3rd weekend. If Rob will come out and play with us at Buttonwillow the next round, we can give you a really good idea on how a set of 5 HC tires will compare to whatever he will be running.

            The Toyo RR seems to have its best lap around lap 4 of the 1st HC. After that it falls off a couple of tenths and tends to stabilize until there is no tread groove left. It will then drop a bit more as you go onto the harder of the dual compounds and stay good until it cords.

            My main point was that if we are splitting hairs this tight and this is the deciding factor as to whether you race one series or another, I think you have bigger surprises awaiting you in either class if your goal is to truly win. Rob is right, guys that want to win will increase the cost no matter what. Yes you might be able to get a year on the tires you guys are selecting, but all it takes is one guy to decide that it is worth buying a new set because he can get a tenth or two more out of them. Then you will have guys that will start shaving, Etc .

            Emilio, if you are talking about whether we can run at the front at the nationals with 5 HC tires, you know the answer to that and it is no we can't. But the title of this thread was cost analysis for club racing. For club racing we can be very competitive. I consider nationals from either org to be a bit above the definition of club racing and was the point of my "prestige" comment. A fairer cost comparison between what you guys are doing and what the national orgs are doing would be to compare it to SM regional races and not PTE national championship events. If you want to compare to that I capitulate the point and you guys are right, way cheaper for you to run SPM. Probably much cheaper to run than a regional PTE class too. But PTE regional isn't the only choice for Miata owners. Which was the point of the comment about narrowly defining the cost comparison.

            Look, you guys are coming up with a great new class option for Miata drivers. I am all for that. I want you guys to succeed. Is SPM the lowest for the best competition? Maybe. But this last weekend we saw 30 cars at the race at the regional NASA race at Sonoma and the level of competition was top notch and the driving was very clean. So all I am saying is to pick the class you want for the reasons that you decide are important to you. Just don't be surprised if a simple cost analysis based on entry fees and tires only is going to give you the entire picture on what it is going to take to be competitive in any organization or race series. Go in with eyes wide open about what it takes to win against guys that will do anything to beat you. And BTW, the 6th place we achieved this last weekend was ahead of a guy named Kyle Loustanau who was 2nd at the runoffs I have heard and this was at his home track on our 6 HC tires. A track we have never run before this weekend. So I don't feel too bad about racing in 6th. Granted, Kyles car was misbehaving in a bad way. But 2 more laps and we would have had a shot on the 5th place car too. These guys were on good tires.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
              Is SPM the lowest for the best competition? Maybe. But this last weekend we saw 30 cars at the race at the regional NASA race at Sonoma and the level of competition was top notch and the driving was very clean.
              Add up your costs for that weekend and post here if you would.
              WWW.949RACING.COM
              SuperMiata

              Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
              But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
                Tires will last 3 weekends and be competitive.
                Nah. Two race weekends max for the Toyo RRs, then they're practice tires. Front runners will cycle them out much sooner. Guys like me will run them for three race weekends.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
                  We run Toyo RR's . At the regional level they will last 3 weekends and be able to podium. This assumes that you have multiple rim sets and you have a program that rotates in tires to practice on and tires to race on. That means that you will have a max of 5 cycles on your race tires when you take the last session of the 3rd weekend. If Rob will come out and play with us at Buttonwillow the next round, we can give you a really good idea on how a set of 5 HC tires will compare to whatever he will be running.
                  OK, the devil is in the details.

                  5 heat cycles and three race weekends can be two entirely different things.

                  For guys on a budget like me, three race weekends means 18 heat cycles at the end of the 3rd race weekend. I rotate often based on Toyo's instructions.

                  We should just talk about heat cycles and not the number of weekends for a more meaningful comparison.
                  Last edited by MikeColangelo; 10-01-2013, 12:12 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by emilio700 View Post
                    Add up your costs for that weekend and post here if you would.
                    What would you like me to include? Two years of car refinement? Multiple dyno sessions over the last couple of years? Travel and lodging? Toll fees? If not then here were my expenses to race:

                    Entry fees - Typically $350 or so. This weekend, nothing as we took advantage of the NASA NW offer if you haven't run with them.
                    Tires - Nothing, as we used our 2 HC tires to race on and 16 HC tires to practice and qual on. These same tires were used in Fridays 4 session testing ( that cost $375 but would have been the same cost to you if you tested SPM that day). Because we start good, we chose to use old tires for qual. Tires are cooked but we will still use them to practice on at BW for the next race.
                    Fuel - Aprox $150 in fuel . Same or less than you guys if running the same distance.
                    Parts - I bought a $15 valve cover gasket and a new PCV valve - Same as you if you needed to replace those parts.

                    In the spirit of what you are asking though; $350 for entry, $45 for a transponder because we chose to rent right now, $250 for tires with our rotation program. That is about $750 less fuel and transportation.

                    Please don't ask me to add up what it cost to get that 6th place though. It took 2 years of dedication in the class, countless hours of car and driver prep, tens of thousands of dollars in track time and car prep, multiple years karting and building race craft, many humiliating defeats and negative comments by others.......... and hundreds of hours of enjoying life with my son!!!!! Worth every penny. And that is the bottom line guys. Go ahead and add up the cost if you wish. If the total will change how you feel about what you spent, I would suggest soapbox derby racing. If you love the sport, you will probably spend every last dime on it and die a happy broke man.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I just want to make sure people reading this thread, knows that when you guys are talking about RR lasts 2 or 3 weekends are talking about 3 sessions per day.

                      whereas in SPM, it is 6 sessions per day....

                      RR also is the spec tire in NASA SM. you can't use RR in SCCA NASA or NASA PTE (yes you can, but not competitively).
                      Last edited by bellwilliam; 10-01-2013, 12:22 PM.
                      S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                      13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                      17 GT350R
                      03 Miata Club Sport
                      96 NSX
                      06 EVO MR
                      15 Mini Cooper S
                      Beck 550 Spyder

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Mike, if people are concerned about the cost you can be penny wise and pound foolish. Invest in multiple rim sets so that you are not toasting your race tires and having to buy stickers every race weekend. Get the most out of what you are spending. When I can I will be buying a 3rd set of rims so that we can extend our tire program even further. With multiple rim sets you can be competitive on 5 HC tires. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good idea to go out on shaved stickers if you want that advantage. But that is the same for whatever tire SPM is thinking about running. Shaved new will be faster than unshaved old regardless of the tire in almost all cases. I am trying to compare apples to apples. Maybe I am wrong and we will get destroyed this coming weekend on our old Toyos.

                        But you guys are right - If we were in contention for the championship that we care about, we would have gone out on stickers. But so would you in this new class. Devil IS in the details and that was my original point about the comparison that is being made to PTE class racing. Seemed to be full of details that were being presented in the best possible light to support the idea that SPM is the panacea for expensive racing. Racing is expensive period.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
                          Entry fees - Typically $350 or so. This weekend, nothing as we took advantage of the NASA NW offer if you haven't run with them.
                          Tires - Nothing, as we used our 2 HC tires to race on and 16 HC tires to practice and qual on. These same tires were used in Fridays 4 session testing ( that cost $375 but would have been the same cost to you if you tested SPM that day). Because we start good, we chose to use old tires for qual. Tires are cooked but we will still use them to practice on at BW for the next race.


                          .
                          for variable cost: I am just gonna compare tires and registration. since everything else would be roughly equal...

                          registration - ~$350 vs. ~$280. note this is 3 sessions per day for NASA/SCCA vs. 6 sessions per day for SPM. so twice the seat time for those that cares.
                          tire - not gonna argue how many HC, but from our experience (We've ran ~40 NT01 in 2011 T25, and 75 RR in 2012 T25, plus every California Chump race and enduro, and often on R6), I can tell you that tire life of:

                          RC1 > NT01 not by much though. RC1 likes cooler weather, NT01 likes warmer weather.
                          NT01 lasts ~50% more than RR
                          RR lasts ~30% more than R6 (but R6 hc out fastest)

                          so your tire cost will always be less with RC1 than RR/R6.
                          S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                          13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                          17 GT350R
                          03 Miata Club Sport
                          96 NSX
                          06 EVO MR
                          15 Mini Cooper S
                          Beck 550 Spyder

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            for fixed cost:

                            to be competitive in PTE or SM, you need a built engine..... that's $$$
                            in SPM, you just need a junk yard engine, as the power curve is capped (no flat power curve allowed).
                            S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                            13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                            17 GT350R
                            03 Miata Club Sport
                            96 NSX
                            06 EVO MR
                            15 Mini Cooper S
                            Beck 550 Spyder

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9. If that is the tipping point for you then the decision is clear, go SPM and have a great time racing!!!!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jamz14 View Post
                                William is correct, 6 sessions for a NASA weekend compared to 9.
                                it is 6 sessions for NASA weekend compared to 12 sessions for SV weekend (which includes MC-TT).
                                S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                                13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                                17 GT350R
                                03 Miata Club Sport
                                96 NSX
                                06 EVO MR
                                15 Mini Cooper S
                                Beck 550 Spyder

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X