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German study indicates EV's emit more CO2 over their lifetime than equivalent diesels

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  • German study indicates EV's emit more CO2 over their lifetime than equivalent diesels

    http://www.brusselstimes.com/busines...an-study-shows

    I do not know anything about the veracity of the report but it does make one wonder just how these values are calculated. The heavy crude used to make diesel is really easy to pull out of the ground and turn into diesel if it comes from OPEC. I have horse in this, just reflecting on the annoying misconception that EV's are going to "save the world".

    We need zero carbon emissions if our grand children are not to inherit a wasteland, not lower carbon emissions.
    WWW.949RACING.COM
    SuperMiata

    Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
    But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

  • #2
    I get the Ricardo Quarterly and its cover story this quarter centers entirely on this topic, specifically the question, "What if all cars were electric?" The story is what you'd expect from an engineering firm, scientific and dense (hard to read and digest), and it covers electric cars, alternative fuels such as algae and switchgrass and other bio-derived nonfood-based fuels.

    Essentially, the electric grid in its current condition, worldwide, is in no condition to accommodate an all-electric fleet of cars and trucks. There is also some question as to whether there is enough lithium in the world to power such broad-based transportation applications.

    There is also the question of profitability in bio-derived nonfood-based fuels. Adapting these fuel technologies requires massive investment and the returns are not only far into the future, say 10 years or more, but also far from certain. A lot can happen in energy research in 10 years. These resources also compete for land space with agricultural food production, which at this point requires burning diesel fuel in its production and harvest.

    Also, a recent issue of Racecar Engineering is focusing on hydrogen as a fuel, whether it's used for fuel cell propulsion or burning it in an internal combustion engine. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on earth, and I think it's the best fuel for a lot of applications, but the molecules are so small it's hard to store in a "fuel tank" and it is somewhat volatile (think Hindenburg).

    As long as electric cars are powered by generation plants that run on natural gas and coal, they are not truly clean. As long as we import lithium from South American mines on diesel-driven freight ships, electric cars are not truly clean.

    My take, as it has long been, and as was the position of the previous administration, is that an all-of-the-above approach is what's needed at this point. Once we expose the market to all the technologies possible, either a clear favorite will emerge, or it won't. Either way, we will have found a way forward.

    There is also some interesting research out now on the benefits of power generation using thorium, which kind of lost out to uranium when atomic power was in development in the 1940s and 1950s. Science is pushing toward a cleaner energy future. The problem, as always, is entrenched interests in existing energy sources. I understand the reasons why, but it fosters a short-sightedness in terms of addressing our energy concerns.

    I don't have an electric car. Maybe I should, but I just got my 330i whipped into shape, and I really enjoy driving it. It's important to note that we do own a Prius. It's also important to note that my vote for a Chevrolet Volt was overruled.

    We all have a horse in this race. Acknowledging that is what will allow us to address the problem.
    www.TrackHQ.com

    Comment


    • #3
      1. "A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres (94k miles)" That's simply not true. Federal law requires all full EV to warranty their battery for 8 years or 100k miles. California requires a 10 years, 150k miles warranty on all hybrid battery. Manufacturers are NOT gonna make a battery that can't even last the warranty period. even if Tesla 100Kw batteries are 50% depleted once they hit 250k miles. no one is gonna throw away a 50kw battery, it will get recycled into something else. proably a solar battery storage.

      2. Germany is "special", they decided to shutdown all nuclear power plant by 2022 (started in 2011). This decision is the main reason they are relying on coal and natural gas (oil) powerplant right now. This will soon change as other cleaner power plants comes online. note Germany just announced they will be closing down all 84 coal powerplants in 19 years. USA is 20%, while France is 75% nuclear power.........

      3. EV won't save the world. Googling says "Globally, about 15 percent of manmade carbon dioxide comes from cars, trucks, airplanes, ships and other vehicles." that means cars are less than 10%? probably less.

      4. this is about CO2, so more about "climate change". but diesel main issue is PPM, particulates. that's what causes cancer, allergy, etc.... a medical issue.
      Last edited by bellwilliam; 04-24-2019, 11:58 PM.
      S1 Supermiata - 220whp
      13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
      17 GT350R
      03 Miata Club Sport
      96 NSX
      06 EVO MR
      15 Mini Cooper S
      Beck 550 Spyder

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post
        We all have a horse in this race. Acknowledging that is what will allow us to address the problem.
        True. I stand corrected.

        William,

        You sound a bit like an EV lobbyist Thanks for correcting the errors and misinterpretations of the German report. Accountability is everything. You have to admit however, that any public perception that EV's are the answer, is myopic.

        I read a quote from a reseracher in the economist that it can be shown that voting for a leader that will address climate change will demonstrably have more of an effect then going completely carbon-free. This points out the greater need to, as Brent points out, acknowledge that there is a problem as a race before we can begin to address it.
        WWW.949RACING.COM
        SuperMiata

        Aside from their cost I never understood why people race them.
        But obviously I just dont get it. -fatbillybob

        Comment


        • #5
          The story in Racecar Engineering is excellent, much more readable than the one in Ricardo Quarterly.

          The RE story has some really interesting points.

          - EV growth is escalating. It took 17 months, from mid-2014 to 2016, for the global number of passenger EVs to go from one million to two million. It took six months in 2018 to go from three million to four million.

          - Heavy transport, heating and industry are hard to abate in terms of C02 emissions. Those sectors produced 15 billion tons of C02, 41 percent of the total, compared with 13.6 billion tons for the entire power generation sector. The biggest industrial emitters of all are cement, steel and chemicals.
          www.TrackHQ.com

          Comment


          • #6
            You will have to pry my diesel from my cold dead hands!

            Or just Ban Hotdogs! https://kfiam640.iheart.com/content/...prove-climate/

            Comment


            • #7
              I have solar panels on my roof that generate way more power than I use. I do own an EV.

              ​​​​​​over the last 5 years it's been cheaper to generate my own power including the cost of the panels and the EV lease than to pay for power from the grid for my house and gasoline. Sure the government subsidies helped.

              if gasoline prices continue to climb EVs will continue to increase in number. In the next 5 years as vw and toyota introduce cheaper EVs with fast DC charging and longer range more people will consider them. An electric jetta, camry, or corolla priced in the mid $20s is going to draw some new owners if gasoline is hovering at near $5 a gallon.

              I didn't consider an EV until recently because the range and the numbers just didn't work out.

              diesel small cars are basically finished after the diesel scandal.
              Last edited by Silversprint; 04-25-2019, 10:13 AM.
              Elise
              MR2 Spyder
              Mazda RX7 FD
              Porsche 911E

              Comment


              • #8
                An electric jetta, camry, or corolla priced in the mid $20s is going to draw some new owners if gasoline is hovering at near $5 a gallon.
                I've long believed that electric cars and plug-in hybrids will sell better when the start making them look like ordinary cars and when their prices equal that of their gasoline counterparts. The only thing that's priced even close right now is the Chevrolet Spark, and that's a small car that doesn't have broad appeal.

                In the United States, I think what will happen is what already has begun to happen. Households will have cars for different purposes. An EV or two for commutes, a truck for truck stuff, a fuel-efficient gasoline-powered car/SUV/CUV for long trips. #'merica
                www.TrackHQ.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Silversprint View Post
                  An electric jetta, camry, or corolla priced in the mid $20s is going to draw some new owners if gasoline is hovering at near $5 a gallon.
                  Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post
                  I've long believed that electric cars and plug-in hybrids will sell better when the start making them look like ordinary cars and when their prices equal that of their gasoline counterparts.
                  Tesla Model 3 is already sub $30k with subsidies ($3,750 Federal + $2,500 State + $600-$900 Utility company).......... and yes, $35k Model 3 are shipping.
                  S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                  13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                  17 GT350R
                  03 Miata Club Sport
                  96 NSX
                  06 EVO MR
                  15 Mini Cooper S
                  Beck 550 Spyder

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post



                    Tesla Model 3 is already sub $30k with subsidies ($3,750 Federal + $2,500 State + $600-$900 Utility company).......... and yes, $35k Model 3 are shipping.
                    Can you actually buy a Model 3 for $30k though all in? Everyone I know who has one seems to have paid closer to $60k.
                    99 Mazda Miata SuperMiata #515 - AKA Sparky SOLD
                    '91 Mariner Blue Miata project AKA Napoleon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ucfbrett View Post

                      I've long believed that electric cars and plug-in hybrids will sell better when the start making them look like ordinary cars and when their prices equal that of their gasoline counterparts. The only thing that's priced even close right now is the Chevrolet Spark, and that's a small car that doesn't have broad appeal.

                      In the United States, I think what will happen is what already has begun to happen. Households will have cars for different purposes. An EV or two for commutes, a truck for truck stuff, a fuel-efficient gasoline-powered car/SUV/CUV for long trips. #'merica
                      I went from a Volt to an eGolf. The Golf looks and feels like a regular Golf. My commute is less than before so I no longer needed the longer range of the Bolt. My lease on the Golf is $200 a month for 10k miles with minimal money out of pocket , much less than a Bolt.

                      For hauling and long drives we do still need the truck and gas SUV.
                      Elise
                      MR2 Spyder
                      Mazda RX7 FD
                      Porsche 911E

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Red_5 View Post

                        Can you actually buy a Model 3 for $30k though all in? Everyone I know who has one seems to have paid closer to $60k.
                        Not quite with taxes and such, but yeah about 30k-ish

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          $35k + tax for the Model 3. then State sends you a $2,500 check, your local utility company sends you a $600-$900 check. at end of the year, you take that $3,750 Federal tax credit (goes down to $1,875 on 7/1/19, so buy soon if you a Model 3).

                          this reviewer bought his. note currently you cannot configure this $35k model online.
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMFGmeAY_7M

                          currently, the "cheap" Model 3 shipping is actually the "Plus" model (with better contents) but software limited on range (240 miles). but this might change soon.
                          Last edited by bellwilliam; 04-25-2019, 12:19 PM.
                          S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                          13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                          17 GT350R
                          03 Miata Club Sport
                          96 NSX
                          06 EVO MR
                          15 Mini Cooper S
                          Beck 550 Spyder

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Supposedly you can order a 35k one still if you contact them directly rather than using the web.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You can still order the 35K one, but not online or at a dealership.

                              SuperMiata S2 Class #33

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