Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forum Top Advertisment

Collapse

2001 AP1 Wing or No Wing? (Regarding Driving Style More than Car Setup)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Either way with a wing or especially without one get a bumpsteer kit for an AP1. The AP1 has very significant bump steer which makes the car inconsistent and erratic. Some say you can just learn to catch it. I say if you can remedy the problem with the bump steer kit why would you want to drive a car with a suspension problem that causes significant inconsistent handling.

    I agree you can go faster with a wing, it's a proven fact. You can, however, still have fun without one, compete with those who don't have one and beat guys with one if your car is setup well with consistent handling characteristics etc...

    Comment


    • #17
      ^^^ Well it's just plain stupid not to have a Bump Steer Kit in an AP1. I had Meghan rear toe rods and Jays front camber joints in mine. But saying you need a BSK has nothing to do with the point of this thread. You also need a wing. Big time.
      The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

      2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
      1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
      2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
      2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

      Comment


      • #18
        I certainly agree with most of what you said. I believe it is important to grow as a driver. However like I mentioned in my thread starter; my car is really twitchy and I want to grow in a car that is more neutral in terms of balance.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mozsoyler View Post
          I certainly agree with most of what you said. I believe it is important to grow as a driver. However like I mentioned in my thread starter; my car is really twitchy and I want to grow in a car that is more neutral in terms of balance.
          What exactly is done to your car anyways? Out of curiosity
          Do you understand?

          Comment


          • #20
            17X9 Rpf1 Wheels, Bumpsteerkit, single exhaust. 245F/255R tires.

            Edit: Forgot to mention, previous owner put Swift Spec R Springs on ap1 shocks and gutted the trunk.
            Last edited by mozsoyler; 08-13-2012, 10:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mozsoyler View Post
              17X9 Rpf1 Wheels, Bumpsteerkit, single exhaust. 245F/255R tires.

              Edit: Forgot to mention, previous owner put Swift Spec R Springs on ap1 shocks and gutted the trunk.
              I don't think you need to replace your shocks with CR shocks. I saw your thread in Socal section. From here what I would do is:
              1) Sway bars first. Get an 04-07 AP2 rear bar. Get a thicker front swaybar. Something around 32mm or adjustable would be great.
              2) 255 square so you can rotate the tires.
              3) Who installed and tuned your BSK? Willing to bet if your oversteer in large sweepers or under cornering load is THAT bad, this thing isn't shimmed properly. I have a bumpsteer gauge here at home, but if I ran the test on your car you'd need a realignment, and it does take some time. You might want to look into getting this looked at.

              These things will do the most for neutraling out your car. You won't need to spend money on new shocks, and a non-aero S2000 can be made to drive very neutrally. The last piece of advice I can give, and this is just from experience, the rear end lift is partly caused by the cars rear bumper. If you do bumper cutouts, it helps alleviate some of the built up pressure under the rear and can remove some of that "float" feeling. This is however an aero mod (Sort of, I guess) but when you aren't using a wing, every bit helps. If you wanted to talk setup more long term regarding shocks etc, just shoot me a PM.
              Do you understand?

              Comment


              • #22
                Most production cars are set up with a lot of understeer. This is for safety/litigation, and it makes good sense. So if you get behind the wheel of a reasonably-fast car that's set up for the track, the first surprise might be that it oversteers like crazy. This takes some getting used to, but it's a suspension setup where most cars are quickest.

                Will you learn more from not opting for the fastest setup? In some ways no, and in some ways yes. The only way to get good at car control is to have to control a car. The reaction to your back end coming out is so quick that it's never something you can accomplish by learning in a classroom and then thinking about it when it happens. It's an instinctive response that you develop with repetition -- and the repetition can only come from the rear end getting loose. The part of our brain (down near the base) that handles our instinctive responses is much faster than the part that handles our decisions, logic and all of theat (the frontal part). There is no way the frontal part could drive a car on a race track. It comes down to repetition -- just like most sports.

                Wings function in two ways -- one rational and one irrational. On tracks with higher-speed corners where you are not flat on the gas, the wing allows you to carry more speed through a corner. Wings also have what I'd call a 'ghost shirt' function, where they produce a placebo-type response. We believe they're going to let us go faster, so we drive faster. A lot of go-fast mods work that way.

                The way your suspension behaves from compression to extension is going to play a much bigger role in how your car handles in corners. A track-focused alignment (and whatever other mods are available for your car) will make a MUCH bigger difference than most power or aero mods.

                Suspension -- in this driver's opinion -- isn't everything; it's pretty much the only thing.
                Jack Olsen - 1972 Porsche 911
                What? An awesome video about me and my car
                My Corner-By-Corner Guide to Willow Springs
                My Two-Car Garage's Very Own Website

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'm in the same boat as you... I don't want to go with a wing, but know I need it to run faster times. Right now, my fastest lap times puts me on the podium in the street class without aero, just trying to see if I can beat all of the street classed s2000s sans aero. It's tough though.
                  4.6lbs / whp -- 4lbs / bhp

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jack Olsen View Post
                    MThe only way to get good at car control is to have to control a car. The reaction to your back end coming out is so quick that it's never something you can accomplish by learning in a classroom and then thinking about it when it happens. It's an instinctive response that you develop with repetition -- and the repetition can only come from the rear end getting loose. The part of our brain (down near the base) that handles our instinctive responses is much faster than the part that handles our decisions, logic and all of theat (the frontal part). There is no way the frontal part could drive a car on a race track. It comes down to repetition -- just like most sports.
                    I absolutely agree with this. My s2k at one point was exhibiting some funky oversteer, where the rear would just come out when you go to about 85% of what should have been the car's limit in turns. While frustrating to drive, it forced me to get comfortable with the rear swinging out and slipping. When the problem went away, I was a far more confident driver, and experienced a significant drop in my lap times at EVERY track.
                    pucsicsal - The fastest unit of speed measurement is not the speed of light, it is the speed of flatout. Hence the BRZs limit.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      what you guys are saying is beginners and intermediate drivers should drive a crappy car.. and don't try to fix any of the handling issues. in fact, the worse handling you can make it, better off you will be as a driver.....
                      S1 Supermiata - 220whp
                      13 Tesla, ma: no engine !!
                      17 GT350R
                      03 Miata Club Sport
                      96 NSX
                      06 EVO MR
                      15 Mini Cooper S
                      Beck 550 Spyder

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post
                        what you guys are saying is beginners and intermediate drivers should drive a crappy car.. and don't try to fix any of the handling issues. in fact, the worse handling you can make it, better off you will be as a driver.....
                        Everyone should drive Geo Metros!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bellwilliam View Post
                          what you guys are saying is beginners and intermediate drivers should drive a crappy car.. and don't try to fix any of the handling issues. in fact, the worse handling you can make it, better off you will be as a driver.....
                          Not quite. I wouldn't say go buy a crappy car or make your car handle like crap. But if you have a car that is loose, learn to drive around it before you change it. If he is trying to learn, make the car a constant and the driver the variable. If he wants to primarily go fast and learning is secondary, than do whatever is in your budget. A wing will give you a lot of bang for the buck. My .02.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Neocataboi View Post
                            Everyone should drive Geo Metros!
                            Geo metros need a wing too.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Jack Olsen View Post
                              The only way to get good at car control is to have to control a car. The reaction to your back end coming out is so quick that it's never something you can accomplish by learning in a classroom and then thinking about it when it happens. It's an instinctive response that you develop with repetition -- and the repetition can only come from the rear end getting loose. The part of our brain (down near the base) that handles our instinctive responses is much faster than the part that handles our decisions, logic and all of theat (the frontal part). There is no way the frontal part could drive a car on a race track. It comes down to repetition -- just like most sports.
                              One word synonym for this paragraph: "Countersteer"
                              The deposed former Sheriff of trackHQ . . .

                              2006 Porsche 997 Carerra Coupe 6-MT - daily driver
                              1992 Honda (Acura) NSX 5-MT - classic investment I couldn't resist and occasionally drive
                              2004 Honda S2000 AP2 6-MT - my last track day car (FOR SALE or not, depending on how I feel when I fall out of bed tomorrow morning)
                              2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX MR 6-MT - when I need a backseat, 4-doors, or a real trunk, and still want to haul ass . . .

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X